Anti-Illegal Immigration Group's Forum Plan Foiled

[Murron]

August 12, 2005
latimes.com : California

Anti-Illegal Immigration Group's Forum Plan Foiled

Concerns over racism thwart Save Our State's effort to find allies in the black community.

By Lisa Richardson, Times Staff Writer

Save Our State, the in-your-face anti-illegal immigration group, was thrilled. Its long-held desire to forge ties to the black community was at last to be realized.

Invited to speak to a black community forum in Leimert Park this month, SOS founder Joseph Turner was sure that by the time he finished expressing his outrage about the impact of illegal immigration on jobs, schools and neighborhoods, Save Our State would have new, equally outraged allies.

But it was not to be. Turner's invitation was rescinded shortly after it became public. The story of how and why that happened says much about how heated the debate over immigration policy has become in black communities in Southern California and how much the tone of that debate has discomfited many black leaders.

For Turner, the chance to speak at the Urban Policy Roundtable, a forum run by the political analyst Earl Ofari Hutchinson, would have been a coup on several fronts: Save Our State would expand its geographical reach into South-Central; an infusion of black activism around illegal immigration would force elected officials to take heed; and with blacks on board, SOS could, perhaps, rid itself of persistent allegations of racism.

But no sooner did Turner post a euphoric message online announcing the meeting than opposition mobilized against it.

Hutchinson's group has become an influential forum in South Los Angeles. Politicians and school officials make it a first stop when reaching out to blacks. Pro-immigration groups were outraged that Turner might gain such a well-known platform, and they were determined to stop him.

They vowed to protest. Hutchinson was bombarded with angry e-mail. A liberal advocacy group sent him a five-page letter of "concerns" outlining what it called Save Our State's "violent, hateful, racist actions." Hutchinson invited immigration advocates to present their side at the meeting, but none would share the podium with Turner.

Hutchinson, who said he had barely heard of SOS when Turner asked to come to the group, began to have second thoughts. He perused the SOS website and says he was repelled. He decided to withdraw the invitation.

One statement on the website, in particular, has stayed with him. It reads:

"Aren't you tired of watching your state turn into a Third World cesspool right before your eyes?"

"That is calling people of color scum and garbage," he said. "You essentially are calling me that, too. I think there is a racist tinge."

Although there were many comments disavowing racism on the website, there also were rants against Mexicans and the "brown hordes," Hutchinson said.

Because of the blurring of the line between opposition to illegal immigration and disdain for immigrants in general, "I'm not sure Turner isn't racist," Hutchinson said.

Turner is sure he isn't racist. Aggressive, angry and actively looking for confrontation, yes, he says. Racist, no.

He is equally adamant that somehow, somewhere, he is going to demonstrate to blacks that they belong in the anti-illegal immigration movement.

"Sometimes I think I have a better pulse on what's going on in the black community than the Al Sharptons of the world," he said. "If you ask blacks what they want, they'd say: 'We're tired of those Â… Mexicans coming over the border and starting trouble.' That's what they'd say."

On that point, Hutchinson said, Turner is not far off the mark.

"Jobs," he said. "It all comes back to jobs. If Turner came, I believe he would have a huge constituency, a huge wellspring of sympathy and support," Hutchinson said. "He would be met with thunderous applause."

Hutchinson says he has seen firsthand the frustration among blacks at illegal immigration. At his meetings, the subject keeps coming up. The topic of the discussion could be autism or homelessness or relations between the community and the police. "About a year ago, I started noticing that no matter what the subject is, illegal immigration comes up," he said.

For example, after a toddler, Suzie Marie Peña, was killed in a shootout with Los Angeles police officers, Hutchinson invited a member of the SWAT team to address the group.

"One of the first questions was, 'Are there illegal immigrants on the SWAT team?' " he said. "I can't emphasize this enough. There is such a deep hostility, antipathy and antagonism in the black community about this issue of illegal immigration."

David Olivas, an attorney and city councilman in Baldwin Park, keeps an eye on the burgeoning hostility. He monitors the SOS website daily and was the first person to contact Hutchinson with concerns about the group.

"After [Proposition] 187, things simmered down," he said, referring to former Gov. Pete Wilson's ballot proposition that attempted to deny public services to illegal immigrants. "Wilson was out of office, a lot of 187 was found to be unconstitutional and ultimately viewed as a lingering political mistake."

Now, resentment about illegal immigration appears to be rising again, Olivas said, adding, "In the Latino leadership now, there are a number of people who feel extremely afraid of what appears to be a movement."

Turner hopes that is correct, and he is certain that his movement can forge a bridge to South L.A. "Rightly or wrongly, we're seen as being a bunch of angry Â… white guys," he said. "But I've always wanted to work with the black community. Our movement needs to enlarge the tent to include people who are Hispanic, Asians, rich, poor, Democrats, Republicans, gay, straight, whatever."

Turner is not sure what his next step will be. He may rent a space and hold his own community forum or take a group of SOS members with him to rally in South Los Angeles.

"I don't want to be perceived as swooping into South-Central with a bunch of white people standing around saying, 'Stop illegal immigration,' " he said. "But I know with all my heart, if we go down there and do something, it's going to be huge."

url: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-so...y?track=tothtml (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-sos12aug12,0,7951600.story?track=tothtml)


[Murron:

I merged your thread into mine, which was placed in the Press Room.

Joseph]

[SaveOurState]

Anti-Illegal Immigration Group's Forum Plan Foiled (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-me-sos12aug12,1,5856942.story?coll=la-news-state)

Save Our State, the in-your-face anti-illegal immigration group, was thrilled. Its long-held desire to forge ties to the black community was at last to be realized.

Invited to speak to a black community forum in Leimert Park this month, SOS founder Joseph Turner was sure that by the time he finished expressing his outrage about the impact of illegal immigration on jobs, schools and neighborhoods, Save Our State would have new, equally outraged allies.
Â*Â*
But it was not to be. Turner's invitation was rescinded shortly after it became public. The story of how and why that happened says much about how heated the debate over immigration policy has become in black communities in Southern California and how much the tone of that debate has discomfited many black leaders.

For Turner, the chance to speak at the Urban Policy Roundtable, a forum run by the political analyst Earl Ofari Hutchinson, would have been a coup on several fronts: Save Our State would expand its geographical reach into South-Central; an infusion of black activism around illegal immigration would force elected officials to take heed; and with blacks on board, SOS could, perhaps, rid itself of persistent allegations of racism.

But no sooner did Turner post a euphoric message online announcing the meeting than opposition mobilized against it.

Hutchinson's group has become an influential forum in South Los Angeles. Politicians and school officials make it a first stop when reaching out to blacks. Pro-immigration groups were outraged that Turner might gain such a well-known platform, and they were determined to stop him.

They vowed to protest. Hutchinson was bombarded with angry e-mail. A liberal advocacy group sent him a five-page letter of "concerns" outlining what it called Save Our State's "violent, hateful, racist actions." Hutchinson invited immigration advocates to present their side at the meeting, but none would share the podium with Turner.

Hutchinson, who said he had barely heard of SOS when Turner asked to come to the group, began to have second thoughts. He perused the SOS website and says he was repelled. He decided to withdraw the invitation.

One statement on the website, in particular, has stayed with him. It reads:

"Aren't you tired of watching your state turn into a Third World cesspool right before your eyes?"

"That is calling people of color scum and garbage," he said. "You essentially are calling me that, too. I think there is a racist tinge."

Although there were many comments disavowing racism on the website, there also were rants against Mexicans and the "brown hordes," Hutchinson said.

Because of the blurring of the line between opposition to illegal immigration and disdain for immigrants in general, "I'm not sure Turner isn't racist," Hutchinson said.

Turner is sure he isn't racist. Aggressive, angry and actively looking for confrontation, yes, he says. Racist, no.

He is equally adamant that somehow, somewhere, he is going to demonstrate to blacks that they belong in the anti-illegal immigration movement.

"Sometimes I think I have a better pulse on what's going on in the black community than the Al Sharptons of the world," he said. "If you ask blacks what they want, they'd say: 'We're tired of those Â… Mexicans coming over the border and starting trouble.' That's what they'd say."

On that point, Hutchinson said, Turner is not far off the mark.

"Jobs," he said. "It all comes back to jobs. If Turner came, I believe he would have a huge constituency, a huge wellspring of sympathy and support," Hutchinson said. "He would be met with thunderous applause."

Hutchinson says he has seen firsthand the frustration among blacks at illegal immigration. At his meetings, the subject keeps coming up. The topic of the discussion could be autism or homelessness or relations between the community and the police. "About a year ago, I started noticing that no matter what the subject is, illegal immigration comes up," he said.

For example, after a toddler, Suzie Marie Peña, was killed in a shootout with Los Angeles police officers, Hutchinson invited a member of the SWAT team to address the group.

"One of the first questions was, 'Are there illegal immigrants on the SWAT team?' " he said. "I can't emphasize this enough. There is such a deep hostility, antipathy and antagonism in the black community about this issue of illegal immigration."

David Olivas, an attorney and city councilman in Baldwin Park, keeps an eye on the burgeoning hostility. He monitors the SOS website daily and was the first person to contact Hutchinson with concerns about the group.

"After [Proposition] 187, things simmered down," he said, referring to former Gov. Pete Wilson's ballot proposition that attempted to deny public services to illegal immigrants. "Wilson was out of office, a lot of 187 was found to be unconstitutional and ultimately viewed as a lingering political mistake."

Now, resentment about illegal immigration appears to be rising again, Olivas said, adding, "In the Latino leadership now, there are a number of people who feel extremely afraid of what appears to be a movement."

Turner hopes that is correct, and he is certain that his movement can forge a bridge to South L.A. "Rightly or wrongly, we're seen as being a bunch of angry Â… white guys," he said. "But I've always wanted to work with the black community. Our movement needs to enlarge the tent to include people who are Hispanic, Asians, rich, poor, Democrats, Republicans, gay, straight, whatever."

Turner is not sure what his next step will be. He may rent a space and hold his own community forum or take a group of SOS members with him to rally in South Los Angeles.

"I don't want to be perceived as swooping into South-Central with a bunch of white people standing around saying, 'Stop illegal immigration,' " he said. "But I know with all my heart, if we go down there and do something, it's going to be huge."



Lots of neat little nuggets in this piece.

Olivas following us around and actively working against us is amusing. Sounds like he misses us. Baldwin Park (aka Occupied Terrirotry) needs to be revisited.

He was incredibly encouraged to read his statement about the genuine concerns of the "Latino leadership". Damn skippy.

All in all, I like the piece and feel that we will be making some headway into the black community on the issue of illegal immigration.

Here is a copy of the email that Hutchinson sent me pertaining to the rescision of the invitation:


We'll have to cancel the August 20 roundtable. I could not get a suitable
spokesperson to represent the pro-immigrant rights position. They refused to share the podium with SOS. The other reason, threats have been made to disrupt the event.Â* That is totally counter to the purpose of our roundtables.Â*

[Cat Patrol]

Now, resentment about illegal immigration appears to be rising again, Olivas said, adding, "In the Latino leadership now, there are a number of people who feel extremely afraid of what appears to be a movement."


Good. They should feel afraid.

[Drumsme7]

First of all, William, your post is way off base. Not only do we need allies, but Americans of all colors need allies. How many times do we need to repeat this? This isn't a "race" issue, it's an American issue. Don't you people understand? You're hurting the cause with this constant racial BS! We are, at this point in time, on the fringe of something that could be really big. We're trying to forge an alliance with Americans of all colors in order to retain our Republic. American citizens, be they white, black, brown, whatever, are all part of this mindset we call American. Sure blacks are pissed off, our history between blacks & whites didn't start off on the right foot & they had good reason to be pissed. But even though there will always be some friction, I think we've all come to a point where we understand that we're now in this together. That we all need to fight this invasion. This isn't about racial equality or civil rights. It's about illegal aliens. It's about an army of illegals invading our country, taking our jobs, depressing our wages, bankrupting our schools & hospitals, degrading our natural resources & changing our culture & our language. It's about all Americans & our right to keep the Nation we've all invested in. Blacks have every right to the American dream, as do legal mexicans, asians, etc. The only way we're going to win this thing is if all of us stand together & fight. Whites & blacks have been working on discrimination & working on ways to have a fair & equitable society for decades. We've come a long way. The majority of white Americans understand the problems & are a decent & caring lot, as are blacks. Some say they were forced to buy into the American dream & that is true, yet it's 2005, we can't change history. But blacks are now part of America. They've raised their children here & have worked hard to become a part of the dream. They've invested in America & now, because of some radical leftist "leaders", they should just allow the illegals to wipe out their hard earned place in this country? They should allow their own to be displaced from their jobs & their neighborhoods because of some perceived illegal alien rights? They should walk hand in hand with the illegal cheerleaders because of some minority pact? Blacks underwent real discrimination & had to fight diligently for their rights, and now you're going to tell me that it's OK for illegals to jump on their bandwagon? You're going to tell me that simply by crossing over a border illegally is in the same context of what blacks went thru? What utter nonsense. Blacks should be OUTRAGED, not only about the illegal invaders but also at their own "leaders" who use the the illegal alien "civil rights" banner to empower themselves at their own peoples expense. I've said it many times. Blacks are hurt most at this point in time by the invasion, & I feel for them, as I feel for all Americans who are hurt by it. That is the crux of what we're all about, the American people & America itself

[MSMAYDAY]

Hutchinson, who said he had barely heard of SOS when Turner asked to come to the group, began to have second thoughts. He perused the SOS website and says he was repelled. He decided to withdraw the invitation.
David Olivas, an attorney and city councilman in Baldwin Park, keeps an eye on the burgeoning hostility. He monitors the SOS website daily and was the first person to contact Hutchinson with concerns about the group.



I wonder if Mr. Hutchinson expended equal effort perusing pro-illegal immigration sites. I wonder if he would be equally offended by the opposition groups who deface the flag or hold signs about "white trash". I'm sure Mr Olivas' would have no influence if Mr. Hutchinson saw that he is aligned with such anti-American, racist sentiments. Sounds like Mr. H. should check his own racial bias. He's looking for reason to dismiss the message because of the "white" messenger.

Silence the message and align with the very folks causing pain amongst your own. Enable Mexico to continue with its racist practice of facilitating the mass movement of its own indigenous people, who, after all will take the jobs "even blacks wont take" (Vicente Fox) Insure that the flow of cheap labor for American business is not disrupted.

Mr. Hutchinson is bound by the chains of political correctness that suspend all rational dialogue with the introduction of the "racist" charge. Who is he to filter the dialogue before he even hears the message?

Joe Turner is asking for an audience with other Americans. People whose interests are to serve those from another country have no business interfering in this dialogue!

Mr. Olivas is concerned primarily with the interests of those who are not American citizens, not those Mr. Hutchinson represents.

[I'mwithya]

Mr. Hutchinson MADE A BIG MISTAKE!

Illegal immigration is so foolish as the people entering illegally are not screened as
immigrants were in the past.
RESPONSIBILITY was a big part of past LEGAL immigration.

This kept much of the scum such as the gang-bangers out of the United States.

I have a Peruvian friend that enter the U.S. LEGALLY in the late 40's.

He told me that applicants had to be of good character, with some money in the bank, and
able to support themselves.
They also signed papers stating that if they committed a crime, they would be
subject to deportation.

Now isn't this better for all Americans?

Today our irresponsible government leaders only thinks of the money generated for the Corporations and businesses and the hell with the American citizens.

Hutchinson obviously is not a good leader as his people are being attacked by
illegal aliens from south of the border, and the attacks are growing at an alarming rate.

[Drumsme7]

Hutchinson says he has seen firsthand the frustration among blacks at illegal immigration. At his meetings, the subject keeps coming up. The topic of the discussion could be autism or homelessness or relations between the community and the police. "About a year ago, I started noticing that no matter what the subject is, illegal immigration comes up," he said. I agree MSMAY. He, like most others, have allowed the radical pro-illegal cabal to silence him & hence, not be able to discuss the real problem. And there lies the problem. When are black leaders going to start looking out for blacks? How can they call themselves leaders when they allow themselves to be silenced not only by the pro-illegal goons, who are hurting their constituency the most, but also by the confines of political correctness? You're not going to solve any problems if you're forced to work within the smothering orthodox of political correctness. It can't be done. It stifles free speech & any real dialogue. It's whole purpose is to shut people up about the real problems that exist

[Raymond]

Turner is not sure what his next step will be. He may rent a space and hold his own community forum or take a group of SOS members with him to rally in South Los Angeles.

DO IT! Forum in South Central. Personally, I'd prefer the forum over a rally given recent history regarding some unwanted attendees at the protest rallies. Until that situation is resolved, I'd go with the community forum.

[SaveOurState]

Originally posted by William@Aug 12 2005, 06:46 AM
:::sigh:::

When will foolish white people understand that no matter how much the white man grovels, apologizes, pays tribute, and surrenders his beautiful blue-eyed daughter to the black man, we will always be viewed as evil racists? When will we learn the lesson? We don't need to find allies among the non-white population. Whites can stand on our own two feet, as our ancestors did. :angry:
:head:

No one is saying that whites should "grovel" or that they cannot "stand on [their] own two feet." What an absolutely ridiculous suggestion and a misrepresentation of any efforts by Save Our State to broaden the tent.

Your tone seems to suggest one that supports racial separatism. How else can one interpret your remarks? Save Our State does not support any racialist/separatist philosophy.

Illegal immigration negatively impacts just about every demographic. Hispanics, blacks and Asians have stood with us in solidarity on this issue and I was honored that they chose to stand with me and I was proud to stand with them.

[Ventura]

William, You don't get it. This is about illegal immigration, not black/white/brown/yellow. There are plenty of white supremecy forums out there for you to comment in, don't try to mold this forum into something it is not.

Drumsme7...Exactly!! I couldn't have said it better. Thank you.

Joe, you are absolutely correct in wanting to align with these groups of other Americans that have been hurt by illegal immigration. I know you are sick of defending SOS as not being racist but it is important to reiterate when this type of BS is said in the forums.

Just my $.02

[lance_sjogren]

William's views are totally opposite to the goals of SOS.

He talks about "we" don't need allies among black people.



Well, William, I don't happen to define my identity by the color of my skin. And that is also true for many black people.


You obviously feel otherwise. In my view your outlook is very similar to the Aztlaners, it's just that they happened to be born brown and you were born white.

[Oldpreach]

LOL !

Work on the more conservative element like Jesse Peterson.

[RIM05]

Preach, please say you mean Jesse Peterson and not Jackson.

[William]

Originally posted by SaveOurState@Aug 12 2005, 10:59 AM
What an absolutely ridiculous suggestion and a misrepresentation of any efforts by Save Our State to broaden the tent.


"Broaden the tent"? Yeah, good luck with that, Mr. Turner.

The interesting question here is, why do you feel SOS lacks legitimacy without multiracial support? Is SOS a failure if only whites participate?

I can assure you, the white Americans of my acquaintance here in OC--the guys with power, money, & influence who want to do something about the immigration invasion--are definitely not motivated by multiculturalism or multiracialism.

Let's see how far you get by appealing to blacks. :P

[lance_sjogren]

Hutchinson reminds me of the Sierra Club.


Put your head in the sand so as to avoid offending anyone.



As I always say, the Sierra Club will eventually support sustainable immigration policies for the United States, but it will be "bringing up the rear". A day late and a dollar short, or more accurately, probably 10 years late and millions of dollars short since David Gelbaum's money tree will stop producing fruit.

Likewise, people like Hutchinson will eventually acknowledge reality, but they are too deeply intrenched in the politically correct world of "don't do anything that anyone might be offended by" that he will probably sit on the sidelines until the entire country is mobilized for immigration reform.

I 100% agree with the guy on the point, nobody needs the approval of self appointed "leaders" of the black community to reach out to black people.

I bet there are a lot of black people that are pissed as hell that the people who pull the strings are conspiring to interfere with them when they seek to get involved in the immigration reform revolution.

Bottom line is, there are people throughout LA that are mobilizing in support of pro borders, and there are groups forming all over. Black people (and latinos as well) are free to join these organizations. I don't think there's necessarily a need for some sort of "rally" specifically geared toward getting black people involved in the fight.

Some blacks and latinos have already joined the movement, but many are probably deterred by the traditional intimidation and hate speech directed at those who decide to leave the "open borders plantation".

I think black people are pissed off enough by now that you are going to see an increasing number joining local immigration reform groups. Same goes for Latinos. A rally might speed up the process a bit, but it's going to happen no matter what.

The self appointed leaders of these ethnic "communities" will eventually have to decide either to follow or get out of the way.

[AyatollahGondola]

Originally posted by William+Aug 13 2005, 07:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (William @ Aug 13 2005, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SaveOurState@Aug 12 2005, 10:59 AM
What an absolutely ridiculous suggestion and a misrepresentation of any efforts by Save Our State to broaden the tent.


"Broaden the tent"? Yeah, good luck with that, Mr. Turner.

The interesting question here is, why do you feel SOS lacks legitimacy without multiracial support? Is SOS a failure if only whites participate?

I can assure you, the white Americans of my acquaintance here in OC--the guys with power, money, & influence who want to do something about the immigration invasion--are definitely not motivated by multiculturalism or multiracialism.

Let's see how far you get by appealing to blacks. :P [/b][/quote]
Is SOS a failure if only whites participate?

William,

Just so there is no mistake about my intentions here, I have an interracial marriage, and offspring too. With that pointed out, I don't know how you'd view my contribution to this board both before and after you arrived. I have examined the philosophies, and the stated requirements of the whites only clubs and I see that I am not desireable there. So I stopped knocking on that door.
The funny thing is here, the policies here are less restrictive. They allow for those with differing racial and philosophical backgrounds a chance to participate in the illegal immigration battle as long as you leave certain stated practices and statements on the doorstep outside when you enter this realm. Yet many whites only, or whites exclusively proponents keep reaching out to us here. So what's the deal here? Is it lonely at the whites only party these days. I'd of thought that with all those folks you mentioned:
the white Americans of my acquaintance here in OC--the guys with power, money, & influence who want to do something about the immigration invasion
Would keep you so occupied and content that you wouldn't need to visit the neighborhood of those with whom you obviously feel won't provide the needed impact or support to your illegal immigration battle.

[sosal]

In my view, people with money, power, and influence tend to be a large part of the problem.

They live in gated communities, and have the conflicting habit of hiring people of unknown background to come in those gated communities to maintain their landscaping, clean their houses, and in some cases to nanny their children. All for cheap.

Then, if they are business owners, they exploit cheap labor to underbid their business neighbors, and every dollar they don't give an employee is a dollar into their own pocket.

If the man is an investor, then he has a money stake in the business man who hires cheap labor.

Both will exploit labor which may not be quality simply because it is so cheap, even if it requires being redone due to shoddiness, and costs more in the long run. The costs are not only on their own projects, but the social impact of hospitals closing, and people who take advantage of tax funded social programs to which they are neither entitled to nor support due to tax evasion.

In the meantime, the moneyed, powerfull, and influentual don't rub shoulders with illegals on a daily basis. Other than the house help, it's viewed at a distance through a rolled up automobile window.

[SaveOurState]

Originally posted by William+Aug 13 2005, 07:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (William @ Aug 13 2005, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SaveOurState@Aug 12 2005, 10:59 AM
What an absolutely ridiculous suggestion and a misrepresentation of any efforts by Save Our State to broaden the tent.


"Broaden the tent"? Yeah, good luck with that, Mr. Turner.

The interesting question here is, why do you feel SOS lacks legitimacy without multiracial support? Is SOS a failure if only whites participate?

I can assure you, the white Americans of my acquaintance here in OC--the guys with power, money, & influence who want to do something about the immigration invasion--are definitely not motivated by multiculturalism or multiracialism.

Let's see how far you get by appealing to blacks. :P [/b][/quote]
William,

We already have multiracial support. However, I would like to have more. In well under a year, Save Our State has been founded and positioned itself squarely in the middle of the illegal immigration debate. We are already legitimate.

You write of your acquaintances in OC... Well, I have one question for you: "Why don't you guys get off your ass and do something about this problem?"

You want to lecture me on strategy and activism. Okay. But, if what you say is true, what is stopping you from joining the fight?

It is apparent that you have fundamental differences with our philosophy here at Save Our State. Perhaps, it is time you find an organization that is more suited to your liking.

[Oldpreach]

Originally posted by William+Aug 13 2005, 07:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (William @ Aug 13 2005, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SaveOurState@Aug 12 2005, 10:59 AM
What an absolutely ridiculous suggestion and a misrepresentation of any efforts by Save Our State to broaden the tent.


"Broaden the tent"? Yeah, good luck with that, Mr. Turner.

The interesting question here is, why do you feel SOS lacks legitimacy without multiracial support? Is SOS a failure if only whites participate?

I can assure you, the white Americans of my acquaintance here in OC--the guys with power, money, & influence who want to do something about the immigration invasion--are definitely not motivated by multiculturalism or multiracialism.

Let's see how far you get by appealing to blacks. :P [/b][/quote]
Uh, are your whitey friends doing anything, or contributing their big bucks? If so, it is not to save our state very much, otherwise Joe would be full time at this about now.

Also, if you are reading this William, I am going to have to insist that you can some of your statements. I think you know what I am talking about. Plz send me a PM stating that you have read this.

[AyatollahGondola]

It taaaastes good..... to be back hoooome again...yes sir
Sometimes it feels so good...... just like a long lost friend....
Oh..it tastes good to be back home again.

So, now can we get back to getting SOS's good name restored and back into the news? How about we start right up here in the Capitol of our occupied territories by getting that freeway sign up and pushing the media envelope with a capitol rally where we tear up a copy of the declaration of dependence. That could be a copy of NAFTA, CAFTA or a parchment copy of all the BS that the OBL tries to keep force feeding us, such as how the California economy would just collapse without all of the undoc's.

[Oldpreach]

You da man....name it.

[MSMAYDAY]

Michelle Malkin mentions the SOS forum article in her blog.


http://michellemalkin.com/immigration/2005/08/12/03:08.pm

[ProudNation]

Aya,

I liked that idea about tearing up a CAFTA or NAFTA. Maybe we could meet in Stockton sometime soon. PM me if that sounds good.

[AyatollahGondola]

Originally posted by ProudNation@Aug 13 2005, 05:47 PM
Aya,

I liked that idea about tearing up a CAFTA or NAFTA. Maybe we could meet in Stockton sometime soon. PM me if that sounds good.
Stockton?

I don't know proud, last I knew Stockton was lousy with illegals and gang bangers. Are you sure I won't need a passport or visa to get in?

How about some small town in the same area where two Americans won't stand out like tourists in New York staring up at tall buildings

[ProudNation]

Well would you like to come a little farther south? Ripon is nice and I believe the demograhics would be more to your liking. I would come to you but budget concerns during the summer are limiting me a little bit. So some sort of half way thing is the best thing right now. Being an Adult College Student has really turned me into a poor boy. But no matter what we can find a way. This is important and I believe it is time we meet face to face. Ideas?

[AyatollahGondola]

Being an Adult College Student has really turned me into a poor boy

Mmmmmm! Poor boy. Time for dinner.
I'm going to be making a delivery on monday evening down that way. Available then, or will you have to cancel your massage appointment?
Also, we better get out of this thread with this banter before we get the boot from one of the mod squad. Let's pick it up tomorrow in the Northern California thread.

[Sandinator]

I hate to tell you this but KFI has been playing a promo for their news department that says, "So and so's office was bombarded with emails claiming SOS is hatefull, racist and violent"; KFI kept playing it over and over since yesterday. It is just a short sound bite with no elaboration so it makes SOS sound bad.

It has been driving me crazy everytime I hear it. :head: I've never heard such a pack of lies in all my life.

There is no way anyone hearing about Save Our State for the very first time would know that this is just bogus hype.

[BlackCatsinOntario]

Originally posted by Sandinator@Aug 13 2005, 07:49 PM
I hate to tell you this but KFI has been playingÂ* a promo for their news departmentÂ* that says,Â* "So and so's office was bombarded with emails claiming SOS is hatefull, racist and violent";Â* KFI keptÂ* playing it over and over since yesterday. It is just a short sound bite with no elaboration so it makes SOS sound bad.

It has been driving me crazy everytime I hear it.Â* :head:Â* I've never heard such a pack of lies in all my life.

There is no way anyone hearing about Save Our State for the very first time would know that this is just bogus hype.

Whoa!! That's something that we need to take care of. I am stumped on KFI's decision on what they are doing.

[AyatollahGondola]

Originally posted by Sandinator@Aug 13 2005, 08:49 PM
I hate to tell you this but KFI has been playing a promo for their news department that says, "So and so's office was bombarded with emails claiming SOS is hatefull, racist and violent"; KFI kept playing it over and over since yesterday. It is just a short sound bite with no elaboration so it makes SOS sound bad.

It has been driving me crazy everytime I hear it. :head: I've never heard such a pack of lies in all my life.

There is no way anyone hearing about Save Our State for the very first time would know that this is just bogus hype.
We'll just have to undo that, Sandinator....

[SaveOurState]

Originally posted by Sandinator@Aug 13 2005, 08:49 PM
I hate to tell you this but KFI has been playing a promo for their news department that says, "So and so's office was bombarded with emails claiming SOS is hatefull, racist and violent"; KFI kept playing it over and over since yesterday. It is just a short sound bite with no elaboration so it makes SOS sound bad.

It has been driving me crazy everytime I hear it. :head: I've never heard such a pack of lies in all my life.

There is no way anyone hearing about Save Our State for the very first time would know that this is just bogus hype.
I would have to hear it before I make a comment. What is the context of the statement?

Did KFI discuss the LA Times article or something? I am confused as to where they would even get a soundbite like that.

[Sandinator]

It was taken from the news done at 7 PM on friday. I believe the newscaster is Leah Brandon and it is a reference to this story about the round table discussion and SOS.

KFI takes snippets of the news being read by their reporter and uses them in their advertising promos for the station. That is what makes this "news" snippet so damaging. It is removed from the bigger story that includes the fact that the emails calling SOS all those hateful names are from pro-illegal imigration groups.

When I first heard the promo I knew what it was all about, but like I said before the average listener who didn't hear the original story would gather from this promo that we are a bunch of seething racist bastards.

[ablackvoice]

[SIZE=1]Thank you, Mr. Turner for your efforts to reach out to the black community, may God bless you and strength you. Please do not let a cowardly apologist “media whore” like Earl Ofari Hutchinson discourage you. Mr. Hutchinson is a freelance columnist whose articles appear regularly in a variety of newspapers. I no longer read anything this “house “n****r” has to say. His articles too often demonize blacks and always marginalize our concerns. A few years ago when California’s second highest ranking elected official, Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante used the word “n****r” instead of “Negro” when speaking in front of a group of black tradesmen , good ole Earl the Apologist, was right there to defend him “Bustamante, it seems clear, is guilty of nothing but an especially ill-timed slip of the tongue.” What seems CLEAR is that a non-racist would NEVER use language like that especially when speaking in public! Secondly, it seems VERY CLEAR that Bustamante is extremely comfortable with referring to blacks as “n****rs”.

Instead of defending Bustamante Mr. Hutchinson should have been calling for BustamanteÂ’s resignation, any elected official that uses undeniable racist language is unfit for public office.

In the above-referenced L.A. Times article Mr. Hutchinson even manages to demonize his own people "I can't emphasize this enough. There is such a deep hostility, antipathy and antagonism in the black community about this issue of illegal immigration." What a bunch of crap! I am 43 years old and grow up in Los Angeles, my family first lived in South Central, then Inglewood and later West Los Angeles. My older brother and sister were some of the first to students bused to Westside schools, they were called n****rs every single day by some of the white kids,, but never physically harmed. Obviously, Mr. Hutchinson is unaware of the REAL “deep hostility and antagonism” black children face everyday in Los Angeles County schools. Non gang-affiliated latino children shoot at or beat into unconsciousness their black classmates at an alarming rate. I wonder if Mr. Hutchinson ever heard of Jefferson High, where black kids are outnumbered by latino children more than 10 to 1, but are terrorized daily by roaming gangs of latino kids bent on causing them physical harm. This type racism is not isolated, but appears to be culturally embedded within the latino community, because it is happening all over the state of California.

Mr. Turner, blacks of my generation of have seen first hand how Southern California has changed for the worst, many of us feel as though we are living in the 1950Â’s deep south.

Believe me when I tell you that the black community was the first and continues to be the hardiest hit by illegal immigration. SOS has a natural ally amongst blacks. Many blacks have been complaining about illegal immigration for over 20 years ago, but our media appointed leadership sits by idly while blacks are discriminated against at work and ran out of neighborhoods and schools by latinos.

Mr. Turner for your organization to be able to tap into the huge resources the black community has to offer, you must understand that for blacks illegal immigration is just as much of a racial issue as one of sovereignty. For example, many blacks feel betrayed by white run corporations and their paid off white politicians that allowed and facilitated this current illegal immigration nightmare. Secondly,, guys that post that are like “William” scare us and we do not want be associated in any way with a guy like that.

One last thing, “Drumsme7” for the most part I loved your post, but this one part made me cringe “Some say they were forced to buy into the American dream & that is true, yet it's 2005, we can't change history. But blacks are now part of America. They've raised their children here & have worked hard to become a part of the dream. They've invested in America & now, because of some radical leftist "leaders", they should just allow the illegals to wipe out their hard earned place in this country?”. Man you make it sound like blacks just got here about 50 years ago! Just a short history lesson , many blacks were indentured servants in colonial America and please never forget that the first man that gave his life so that we could become the great country that we are today was a black man, Cripus Attucks. One cannot get more American than the black man.

Mr. Turner if could secure a meeting hall in the black community I am certain it would be well attended.

[California Yanqui]

Nice post. Welcome and don't let the *Williams* of the internet stop you voicing your opinion. Well thought out and nice incite into Hutchinson.

[Cat Patrol]

Welcome aboard, ablackvoice, and what a great post!


It seems obvious to me that SOS is going to have to bypass the Black leadership in order to spread our message among the common Black workers and middle class who are at the most danger from illegal immigration.

[BlackCatsinOntario]

Welcome aboard, ablackvoice! Please, please join us and help us fight to get our Country back. :)

[AyatollahGondola]

Mr. Turner if could secure a meeting hall in the black community I am certain it would be well attended.

By both sides too. This would be extremely controversial, and open to subversion by "immigant" friendly forces. Let's try to do it, but prepare for it with care. It would be all to convenient to make an example out of the first one of these.

[MSMAYDAY]

Interesting post ablackvoice

many blacks feel betrayed byÂ* white run corporations and theirÂ* paid off white politicians that allowed and facilitated this current illegal immigration nightmare.Â* undefined

The skin color is not the issue, their greed is. Greed comes in all colors - you know this. There has been widespread collaboration in creating and maintaining this problem. Those who want cheap labor and those who want power. An unholy alliance of special interests from both the left and the right that's effectively screwing over the average American. It's sickening.

Guys like William make SOS types squirm as well. Don't be detoured, the group is young and they are learning to swat away (like pesky flies) those who have other agendas and want to jump onto this fast-moving train. The opposition knows how skiddish Americans are about race and are gleefully exploiting this.


Man you make it sound like blacks just got here about 50 years ago!

Everybody knows that black Americans have been here damn near forever. Sometimes we are like a dysfunctional family, but family nonetheless. My blood boils when I read your description of how Americans are being treated in their own country. We got our issues but their "our" issues and Americans lock ranks when we are threatened. That time has come and you have come to the right place.

[Kathy58]

I didn't know there were spots on the radio denouncing SOS and this site. You know that some people may come here intending to find racisim and read this site and go the other way. That's the problem with promoting one's own agenda by using the words of the opposition. They could end up being bit by their own alligator.

There has to be some way of exposing mexican racisim and I mean specifically mexican racisim. Mexican racists are not concerned with diversity, its a tool, it's a word. They are concerned only for their own. Mexicans approach the black community and ask for an alliance to promote the interests only of illegal mexicans.

I don't see mexicans down at the docks protesting for the rights of container loads of illegal Chinese to enter illegally. I don't see mexicans out there demanding that boatloads of Hatian refugees be allowed entry.

mexicans are concerned only with other mexicans. They keep their language to exclude blacks as well as whites. They impose their culture on blacks as well as whites. mexicans are the most racist people on the face of the earth, they even surpass Koreans.

[Binh]

Originally posted by Murron@Aug 12 2005, 05:40 AM

Hutchinson, who said he had barely heard of SOS when Turner asked to come to the group, began to have second thoughts. He perused the SOS website and says he was repelled. He decided to withdraw the invitation.

One statement on the website, in particular, has stayed with him. It reads:

"Aren't you tired of watching your state turn into a Third World cesspool right before your eyes?"


Well Joe, if it makes you feel any better, I know lots of Chinese legal immigrants from Beijing and Shanghai who feel many area of New York City and Los Angeles ARE a third world dump, primarily the areas where illegal aliens (including poor Chinese illegals) congregate. These Chinese think Beijing and Shanghai are much cleaner and safer.

Mr. Hutchinson, since "people of color" from a "second world" country are also saying this, why is it such a big problem for you?

[lance_sjogren]

A term like "third world cesspool" can be interpreted as being racist and it can be interpreted as not being racist.

If it is to point out the deplorable conditions in parts of the third world, and the desire to not have such conditions in our country, then it is not racist.

If its implication is that those conditions arose because of some sort of inferiority of the people in that society on account of their race, then it is racist.



It is to be expected that leftists will consider such a statement racist. After all, they will call someone a racist even if that person has never made any statement that can be remotely interpreted as being racist.

So of course they will jump all over a statement that could possibly be but is not necessarily racist.


I think we as a society are finally growing out of that leftist McCarthyite mentality, however.

Like I always say, what the leftists really want is a Police State, and the main difference between their Police State and that of the right wingers is the color of the uniforms of the storm troopers.

[Al Qaeda]

I was really disappointed to hear that Hutchinson pulled the plug, but everyone remember what a left-winger he is and it didn't take much for his fellow lefties to drag him back into the KPFK fold.... but never mind that.

Illegal immigration, as has been pointed out already here, is not a race issue. It affects all Americans of all different colors and ethnic backgrounds.

As for the article- it points out something that has peeved me for awhile here. Several months ago I contacted the moderator about removing some posts that could have had a really negative impact on this group. I don't want to get into the posts because it is just more damage that could be done if we have to "revisit" them. But I was appalled by the performance of the moderator who I told specifically where the posts were located and to please remove them because they could negatively impact this group - associating us with white supremacist groups. To my astonishment after informing the mod twice and these posts remaining up for MORE than a week, the mod kept reporting to me they could not locate the posts! The posts were of course then later revealed for what they were on Indymedia for all of the enemy to see!

The article points out a very important point which is that we need to remove and moderate offensive posts like "brown hordes" - I remember specifically reading those comments and thinking - this person has a very prejudicial attitude. These posts reflect very negatively. Since inception of this group, SOS had been dogged by the "racism" tag. Well, lets not give them any ammunition! There needs to be much more cleaning up of this site. Simply stating after the offending post, that we do not agree - is not going to cut it. The posts can be copied and posted on Indymedia etc and you can bet they will not bother to copy and paste any member's admonishments.
These posts are offensive and do not belong here. I know you guys like to have freedom of expression, but look at what it is costing the group? Now there is no meeting with the black community. (Not to say that they couldn't have dug up past posts or something to use as an excuse, but why are we tolerating racially intolerant comments here?!)

<<A term like "third world cesspool" can be interpreted as being racist and it can be interpreted as not being racist.>>

Yes it can, but when enemies are LOOKING to call you a racist, which way do you think they are going to interpret this? There is a much more "PC" way of explaining what the poster of "3rd World cesspool" had in mind which is to say that the people illegally crossing the border are of the lowest socioeconomic ladder in Mexico/Central America - etc - They are peasants. They end up congregating in areas with cheap housing, or in apartments where the landlords do not require much background verification - month to month apartments with no credit check (ie, slumlords). They congregate because they go to areas where their relatives are already located or where their friends tell them they can get help. thus the areas become ghettos of impoverished illegal immigrants. A "third world cesspool" is one way to describe it I guess, but not the most politically correct way. In the end - everyone on this website needs to realize that what you say affects the reputation of the organization. Please refrain from using inflammatory or ambiguous language like "third world cesspool" to describe the decline of certain neighborhoods due to the high illegal population. If it is not something you would stand up and say in a crowded restaurant, don't say it here on this site. This is a PUBLIC forum and not a good place to vent frustrations by using such language.

Further, isn't there SOME black leaders out there that Joe can reach out to? It is obvious by recent articles that the blacks are furious with the immigration problems since it is directly affecting them. What about Terry Anderson? Can he not aid in this capacity? Also a few months ago there was a black pastor on J&K show that was extensively interviewed (I cannot remember when, sorry!) who should be contacted. He is against illegal immigration. He could be a start. There's more black leaders out there than just Earl Ofare Hutchinson - lets find them. I say start with an email to Terry Anderson.

I apologize in advance if this post is too 'in your face.' I am just trying to help.

[ScottyDog]

I think that Jesse Lee Peterson would openly welcome Joe Turner and He has lots of clout in South Central.

I think he runs a group called BOND and if you notice he does not wear 3000 suits on his TV appearances.

He seems very honest and forth right,

IMHO

[SaveOurState]

Al Qaeda:

Could I do more to soften our image by removing language like "cesspool"? Sure. But I have no interest in softening our image at this time. We are setting a new path and obviously there are going to be folks who disagree with our strategy.

You do raise fair points about moderation. I would like to have a more extensive corps of moderators. But, being a moderator is very difficult. I see and hear many complaints from all sides of the coins about the way moderators handle their duties. It is a crappy job. However, you all could help them some by not engaging in juvenile name calling and tit for tat pissing contests.

With respect to objectionable posts. We have to understand that this is a public messageboard (essentially). Yes, there is some weeding out of posters now with our change in registration process and there is some moderation. However, this board can easily have 300-600 posts in a day and it is simply unreasonable to expect moderators to read every message or have the time to get to every reported post.

For example, the other day, I had 50 reported post emails. I dont have time to go through each one and delete or edit and all that. But, we try.

It is highly likely that some of the post egregious posts are put up by members of our opposition. If you put up enough crap, eventually, stuff will get through the cracks. Then they can go back and tout their "finds" of racism and prejudice, etc.

I have no interest in playing the "I am going to tell you every five minutes that I am not a racist" game. Jesus Christ himself could come out in opposition of illegal immigration and he would be called a racist.

If someone thinks I am a racist, then fine. Dont participate in our organization. I say it time and time again, Save Our State is not for the faint of heart and is not for everyone.

We will be judged by our actions.

[SaveOurState]

Originally posted by ScottyDog@Aug 15 2005, 02:11 PM
I think that Jesse Lee Peterson would openly welcome Joe Turner and He has lots of clout in South Central.

I think he runs a group called BOND and if you notice he does not wear 3000 suits on his TV appearances.

He seems very honest and forth right,

IMHO
I have been on Peterson's talk show twice in an effort to reach out to the black community and was planning on attending their last roundtable before my tire blewout on me.

By all accounts, he is a great man.

[AyatollahGondola]

Originally posted by SaveOurState@Aug 15 2005, 04:43 PM
Al Qaeda:

Could I do more to soften our image by removing language like "cesspool"? Sure. But I have no interest in softening our image at this time. We are setting a new path and obviously there are going to be folks who disagree with our strategy.

You do raise fair points about moderation. I would like to have a more extensive corps of moderators. But, being a moderator is very difficult. I see and hear many complaints from all sides of the coins about the way moderators handle their duties. It is a crappy job. However, you all could help them some by not engaging in juvenile name calling and tit for tat pissing contests.

With respect to objectionable posts. We have to understand that this is a public messageboard (essentially). Yes, there is some weeding out of posters now with our change in registration process and there is some moderation. However, this board can easily have 300-600 posts in a day and it is simply unreasonable to expect moderators to read every message or have the time to get to every reported post.

For example, the other day, I had 50 reported post emails. I dont have time to go through each one and delete or edit and all that. But, we try.

It is highly likely that some of the post egregious posts are put up by members of our opposition. If you put up enough crap, eventually, stuff will get through the cracks. Then they can go back and tout their "finds" of racism and prejudice, etc.

I have no interest in playing the "I am going to tell you every five minutes that I am not a racist" game. Jesus Christ himself could come out in opposition of illegal immigration and he would be called a racist.

If someone thinks I am a racist, then fine. Dont participate in our organization. I say it time and time again, Save Our State is not for the faint of heart and is not for everyone.

We will be judged by our actions.
I don't know jack dukey on this subject, but is there possibly any software that might filter out objectionable words, kind of like a spell check, that wouldn't allow the post to go through without "fixing" them?

[SaveOurState]

yeah. there is a word filter, but it is very easy to circumvent it as there are numerous permutations to get around it.

[Cazamigrante]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("SaveOurState")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We will be judged by our actions.[/b][/quote]

Unfortunately, tolerating posts by racists and bigots is an action too. Moderating an open board is hard work. But unless you're willing to accept being tarred with the brush of racism by reasonable people who'd be willing to assist your efforts, and thus forfeiting further support, it's work that has to be done.

When you're trying to grow a lawn, no one notices or cares how much time you spend mowing or watering if you don't pull the weeds when they become obvious.

[SaveOurState]

Originally posted by Cazamigrante@Aug 15 2005, 05:50 PM
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("SaveOurState")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We will be judged by our actions.

Unfortunately, tolerating posts by racists and bigots is an action too. Moderating an open board is hard work. But unless you're willing to accept being tarred with the brush of racism by reasonable people who'd be willing to assist your efforts, and thus forfeiting further support, it's work that has to be done.

When you're trying to grow a lawn, no one notices or cares how much time you spend mowing or watering if you don't pull the weeds when they become obvious. [/b][/quote]
Point out the posts you think are racist. However, just because you or anyone else thinks a post is racist, that doesnt necessarily make it so.

Someone lamenting legal immigration and its impact on America is not an inherently racist statement. You, and for that matter I, may disagree with that opinion. Again, that doesnt make it racist.

Racism (almost always) must include some sort of supremacist element. American society is so brainwashed that people are willing to label others racist, simply because they make a politically incorrect statement.

We have weeded out scores of posters on this board. Are there some comments that pass through, sure. Does that make us racist? Absolutely not. Is AOL or Yahoo or any other hosting service that allows for discussions which often times turn racist, racists? Of course not.

Intelligent adults possess the ability to filter through and understand these issues. Those calling us racist are going to call us racist, no matter what we do. Does that mean we give carte blanche to members who post here? No. But I sure as hell aint going to look over my shoulder waiting for someone to label me a racist for such and such.

They can go pound sand.

People who are truly fed up with this issue are going to gravitate to us due to our aggressive style. Most of those who complain about our style are people who are for the most part sitting on their asses and will continue to sit on their asses.

[Cazamigrante]

Some people sit on their asses with regard to working to stop illegal immigration.
Some people sit on their asses with regard to distancing themselves from racists.

Nobody who wants to be successful in stopping illegal immigration can afford to sit on their ass in either instance. Our success depends on it.

Any efforts which appear to the casual observer to be racially motivated will attract more racists. They will fail.

Any efforts which appear to the casual observer to be even-handed and reasonable will continue to attract even-handed and reasonable people. They will succeed.

Personally, I'd rather invest my time in the latter. That's all I'm saying.

[Raymond]

I have to agree with the general thrust of Al Qaeda's and Casamigrante's remarks. Without going into specifics, I share your concerns and appreciate you posting your thoughts.

I appreciate Joe's point of view, but have to take issue. Your primary objective, above all else, should be to be as effective as possible in achieving your mission (securing the borders, enforcing immigration laws, going after employers of illegals, public education, etc.). If SOS allows ongoing discussions about such topics as poor Hispanics are having too many babies, you will turn people off and ultimately limit your effectiveness. Regardless of the facts of the situation, I think one needs to ask a basic question -- Will this post facilitate our mission, or hinder it? If the latter, it goes. It can be that simple.

It's not just L.A. Indymedia that reposts certain SOS posts on their website, but then the Southern Poverty Law Center picks up on the stuff from Indymedia, and next the Hispanic Business Forums, and so on. Sure, these groups are already pre-disposed to dislike Americans fighting against illegal immigration, but these groups give SOS negative nationwide exposure. That may work against the prime directive (if I can call it that), to be effective at our mission, right?

I really hope people don't jump in here and say "f**k them. they're the enemy." or something like that. It does not matter. The Minuteman Project (MMP) has many, many critics but has been able to maintain a relatively favorable image despite the radicals and hostile liberal media by adhering to strong standard operating procedures (SOPs) that prevent people from going to far and keep racists out. Without aggressive enforcement of the SOPs, people of questionable values would have joined the MMP and then used it to further their own agenda, while the reputation of the MMP got trashed. Sounds a bit like SOS' Laguna Beach rally. The forums are a similar situation.

It really hurt to see SOS posts reposted, not on indymedia (which is run by a bunch of college students, so who cares), but forums like Hispanic Business. Sure, that forum is going to be more supportive of illegals than a forum more inclusive of all Americans, but its more mainstream. It about business, not radical socialist actions. Some of the posts here at SOS may be helping mobilize more against our fight against illegal immigration, and is very counter-productive. Sure, your black community forum might have been canceled anyways, given pressure by "progressive" groups, but what if the straw that broke the camel's back that turned the tide against the forum was the "cesspool" statement on the homepage? You may not see it as racist (personally, I do not think it's racist), but what if it is limiting your effectiveness and galvanizing opposition to SOS?

[Oldpreach]

Will this post facilitate our mission, or hinder it?

Raymond, Save Our State's mission is not,

Your primary objective, above all else, should be to be as effective as possible in achieving your mission (securing the borders, enforcing immigration laws, going after employers of illegals, public education, etc.)..

With the exception of going after employers of illegals on a street level basis, all this is already being done by other groups. So, if you are taking issue, it is easy to understand why ! Not being obnox here, just friendly really.

The mission, objective, and methods of Save Our State are just different, period.

[mizlegalliberty]

Dear Friends in US Nationalism:

I have friends in Compton- Black friends. NO ONE SUPPORTS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. They tell me GO GIRL!
they have told me stories of ten years ago of trucks showing up at night in the neighborhood- the back of the truck opening and people scattering. Let's get them all out all the illegals.

Additionally, the legal Latin US citizens don't want the illegals, here, either. they have told me on their own!

[BlackCatsinOntario]

Mizlegalliberty,

Welcome to SOS! Thanks for your willingness to help us on defending our Country. :)

[angelccorr]

Originally posted by SaveOurState+Aug 12 2005, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SaveOurState @ Aug 12 2005, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-William@Aug 12 2005, 06:46 AM
:::sigh:::

When will foolish white people understand that no matter how much the white man grovels, apologizes, pays tribute, and surrenders his beautiful blue-eyed daughter to the black man, we will always be viewed as evil racists? When will we learn the lesson? We don't need to find allies among the non-white population. Whites can stand on our own two feet, as our ancestors did.Â* :angry:
:head:

No one is saying that whites should "grovel" or that they cannot "stand on [their] own two feet." What an absolutely ridiculous suggestion and a misrepresentation of any efforts by Save Our State to broaden the tent.

Your tone seems to suggest one that supports racial separatism. How else can one interpret your remarks? Save Our State does not support any racialist/separatist philosophy.

Illegal immigration negatively impacts just about every demographic. Hispanics, blacks and Asians have stood with us in solidarity on this issue and I was honored that they chose to stand with me and I was proud to stand with them. [/b][/quote]
You might add that SOS does not support sexism as well. When William wrote that foolish white people "surrenders his beautiful blue-eyed daughter to the black man," it chapped my hide.

I am not chattle to be given away to anyone by my father. I lead my own life, think for myself and act on my beliefs, that is why I am a member of this organization.

I am not a radical feminist, but I am a patriotic woman who cares about what happens to ALL THE CITIZENS of my country.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by Oldpreach@Aug 17 2005, 12:12 PM
Will this post facilitate our mission, or hinder it?

Raymond, Save Our State's mission is not,

Your primary objective, above all else, should be to be as effective as possible in achieving your mission (securing the borders, enforcing immigration laws, going after employers of illegals, public education, etc.)..

With the exception of going after employers of illegals on a street level basis, all this is already being done by other groups. So, if you are taking issue, it is easy to understand why ! Not being obnox here, just friendly really.

The mission, objective, and methods of Save Our State are just different, period.
Well, I was giving examples of the possible program goals for SOS, but not stating that they were SOS' exact goals. But I was saying that an unwritten goal of SOS is or should be to be as effective as possible in promoting change to whatever goals SOS has - the specific goals like closing the borders or something like that. There has to be more to SOS' mission that "transference of pain", right?

The logical implication is that, if there are people posting comments that can be viewed as highly objectionable (not to the open borders radicals, 'cuz for them American sovereignty is objectionable, but objectionable to reasonable people), then why let the posts remain? For example, can anyone spell out even one goal of SOS that was furthered by the whole thead on Mexicans having lots of babies?

But I could cite some examples of how that thread basically handed our opponents materials to attempt to discredit SOS. It's one thing to have them attempt to discredit you for stating that the border need to be shut and illegals deported (most Americans agree with our side of that issue, so that would be a loser proposition for the radicals), but to make broad, sweeping generalizations about Mexicans gives them ammunition to fight SOS -- comments that many mainstream Americans would also feel crosses a line. And then there's the whole issue of getting our message out to minority communities, whom could lend lots of support. So, is being effective an implied goal of SOS?

[Cazamigrante]

A group that doesn't seek to be effective, rather than merely being "in your face", strikes me as remarkably similar to Christians thrown to the lions, whose sole goal is to resolve to taste very bad. :P

Whether that does, or should, be the case with SOS reamins to seen, based upon actions, and not words.

[Oldpreach]

Raymond,

You found which thread offenseive? You would have to post a link to it here for anyone to answer your questions. Its not really about them having too many babies. I have more kids than most illegals that are here. Its about not taking care of them, and just wholesale welfare mentality that many have even before they have children. Do they fully expect and think that the US Gov. will jst pick up the tab for it all ? Im my opinion the answer is yes, and there can be nothing wrong with bringing attention to this as the majority of American's that you speak of are completely fed up with all this. Other minorities should be as well.

I think the question is, Raymond, who fed up are you specifically with it all? I have always viewed what save our state is doing being for those that are very fed up with it all. One is not going to give up Saturday's and other days to protest and do activist based activities if they are not.

[Oldpreach]

Originally posted by Cazamigrante@Aug 18 2005, 10:03 PM
A group that doesn't seek to be effective, rather than merely being "in your face", strikes me as remarkably similar to Christians thrown to the lions, whose sole goal is to resolve to taste very bad. :P

Whether that does, or should, be the case with SOS reamins to seen, based upon actions, and not words.
Other than this being a poke, and perhaps at me specifically, I do not see the point. Are you saying that Save Our State is not being effective? Why be here then? I would not be here if I did not feel the direction was an effective one.

Also, do you live in So. Cal? If so, did you volunteer for any of the small effort teams ? No one on earth can say that the methods of those teams are not effective ones. The goals are clearly outlined and attainable. Hate to be this way, but if you are going to make a statement like that, I have to ask, what are you doing youself to be effective against the problem of illegal immigration? What do you feel are effective methods and objectives if not what Save Our State is doing?

P.S.- 'In your face' is effective, that is the reason it was chosen as a primary method.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by Oldpreach@Aug 19 2005, 07:44 AM
Raymond,

You found which thread offenseive? You would have to post a link to it here for anyone to answer your questions. Its not really about them having too many babies. I...

I think the question is, Raymond, who fed up are you specifically with it all? I have always viewed what save our state is doing being for those that are very fed up with it all. One is not going to give up Saturday's and other days to protest and do activist based activities if they are not.
I'd rather not repost or post links to a few earlier threads. I personally did NOT find them that offensive, as I have seen exactly what the writers were complaining about, but thought the posts were maybe not in the best taste. More importantly, they were not aiding in getting things done. I'm a co-founder of FIRE Coalition (http://firecoalition.com/) and a lot of my activism it through that group, mostly behind the scenes. If you've seen the website, you'll notice that its very action oriented. Just like many post here - don't talk, do. We report on events across the country, digest articles, post links, facilitate communication between reform groups, establish databases for reporting employers of illegals, and are in constant communication with all these small groups in middle America. They're somewhat disconnected from NY and CA, and we're helping engage them in the movement.

So all I'm really trying to say is that, if someone has time to bitch about the birth rate among immigrants, one might have spend the time posting instead on things to do. Complaining does not advance the movement, and sometimes gives our opponents materials to fight us with. Sure, on its face I don't find them offensive. But anyone can spin, and take remarks out-of-context, so let's not give the radicals anything to work with.

Right now the 2 biggest things I believe a California activist could do this year are:

(1) Get as many signatures for the California Border Police Initiative (http://www.calborderpolice.com); and,

(2) Volunteer for the Jim Gilchrist for Congress Campaign (http://jimgilchrist.com).

The impact of both could be huge. One can assist for either or both pretty much on your own time, alone or with friends, without waiting for others to organize anything. The initiative needs all the signatures by a deadline sometime in December. The election of Minuteman founder Jim Gilchrist would be hugh as well. He'll be in an election in early October, with a possible run-off in December if no candidate gets over 50% of the vote.

But you see what I mean - the point is to do, not to complain. These SOS forums are now reviewed by all these left-wing groups, and I'm trying to be conscious about not providing them ammo to use against us. The prior threads I mentioned did not further SOS goals, they were just complaints. And I do believe the posts were based on frustration and many personal experiences, which have value and cannot be discounted, but I also go back to the effectiveness remarks. Does it further the cause, do nothing, or can it actually hurt it? I'm saying that question should be asked before people post.

[Oldpreach]

I agree that the biggest thing hands down is the CABP act. That is where I will be devoting most of my time in the next 4 months. 800K sigs is almost impossible without bank tho. I wish they would just shoot for next November instead.

As for the other things, I really do not see much material here that the other side could use on here anymore.

Also, every grouop has its place and method. There seems to be this idea in the movement that every group should be doing the same things, or it is a "waste of time", to qoute a certain leader. It would be very easy for me to jst say what FIRE co is doing is a waste of time since it is not what I am interested in for the most part. This would be a very ridiculous thing to say. Every group fits like a piece of a big puzzle, and each group supplies a need function that the other groups DO NOT supply. It is kind of like the human body. "If the body were all eyes, where would be the seeing? Can the eye say to the ear, I have no need of thee ?"

It all works together. Pity da fool that says otherwise.

[Cazamigrante]

Originally posted by Oldpreach+Aug 19 2005, 07:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Oldpreach @ Aug 19 2005, 07:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cazamigrante@Aug 18 2005, 10:03 PM
A group that doesn't seek to be effective, rather than merely being "in your face", strikes me as remarkably similar to Christians thrown to the lions, whose sole goal is to resolve to taste very bad. :P

Whether that does, or should, be the case with SOS reamins to seen, based upon actions, and not words.
Other than this being a poke, and perhaps at me specifically, I do not see the point. Are you saying that Save Our State is not being effective? Why be here then? I would not be here if I did not feel the direction was an effective one.

Also, do you live in So. Cal? If so, did you volunteer for any of the small effort teams ? No one on earth can say that the methods of those teams are not effective ones. The goals are clearly outlined and attainable. Hate to be this way, but if you are going to make a statement like that, I have to ask, what are you doing youself to be effective against the problem of illegal immigration? What do you feel are effective methods and objectives if not what Save Our State is doing?

P.S.- 'In your face' is effective, that is the reason it was chosen as a primary method. [/b][/quote]
If you think it's a poke, let alone at you Oldpreach, you're far too sensitive. :)

I'm merely saying that anyone who'd rather make a point than make a difference is going to be lunch for people who only care about results.

I've lived in So Cal my entire life. When I hear about any small team efforts worth the trouble, I'll be there. To date, I've merely been piddling my time away ON THE BORDER, stopping illegals, drugs, and God knows what else from getting in, and getting yelled at by communist/anarchist morons in the process. I plan on going back soon, because the results are worth the potential discomfort. :D

I'm also saying that if SOS doesn't take a long, hard look at what actions it takes that work, and at what actions it takes that don't work, and make changes accordingly, it's going to become pathetic. If, on the other hand, lessons are learned and mistakes corrected, the momentum will be unstoppable.

And anyone who thinks there haven't been any mistakes, and that there's no room for improvement, is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Nobody's perfect.

And while I see no problem with "In Your Face" (in fact, I kind of favor it!) you have to very careful and make certain that what others notice is what you were trying to confront them with. In other words, perceptions matter, whether you like it or not. Life isn't fair.

So, for example, every time there's any connection with racist groups or racist language at an SOS event or on this board, while you may think you're getting in someone's face about illegal immigration, a neutral person may be so turned off by the smell from the racists that they can't hear what you're saying.

Gaffing that off by saying "We disagree with them" or "We can't help it" won't cut it. If you want to get a message out, the buck stops here. It's YOUR message. It's YOUR website. It's YOUR event. Take charge, and ruthlessly squelch anyone who might lessen your effectiveness, so that what you're trying to convey comes through crystal clear.

One of the reasons the Reagan White House was so phenomenally successful was because every day from the top down, they had ONE message every day, and they cracked the whip to make sure no one got off the topic, or stepped on the message. As a result, the Great Communicator was able to steamroll an opposition Congress, because the People had already had the truth pounded through to them on every channel, and in every story.

Getting our message through about stopping illegal immigration will require that level of internal discipline and lack of tolerance for those trying to hijack this cause.

If we don't do it, the media will be far too happy to pick out anything that will harm SOS and magnify it out of all proportion, and make connections where none exist.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("Oldpreach")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> As for the other things, I really do not see much material here that the other side could use on here anymore.[/b][/quote]

Look harder. ;)

[RIM05]

I agree that the board has stopped a lot of the distasteful things that were being posted. I do not know who nor how it was stopped but I am grateful. I only wish I could be as active as you people who go to the rallies/protests.

[SOSrules]

Originally posted by Cazamigrante@Aug 18 2005, 09:03 PM
A group that doesn't seek to be effective, rather than merely being "in your face", strikes me as remarkably similar to Christians thrown to the lions, whose sole goal is to resolve to taste very bad. :P

Whether that does, or should, be the case with SOS reamins to seen, based upon actions, and not words.
you can't be serious!!!!

[lance_sjogren]

I was just thinking about making a post to thank Joe et al for keeping the extremists with other agendas off of this site.

Kind of a coincidence that just then I clicked on rim5's post which made the same observation.


It's absurd that that caller to Joe on Al Rantel complained about all the supposed hate in the SOS website- and the one example the buffoon came up with was the guy who wanted the US to shoot illegal aliens on the border; an opinion that was lambasted by everyone else here.

[Oldpreach]

It may be just me caza, but you really do come off as a know it all sometimes. You really do act as if you have been around save our state from its inception or something. Have you ? Maybe you are posting now under a new name, and have been.

You were on the border ? Good , so was I, in both AZ and CA. I do not think borderwatches are effective in the ways you mentioned. They are effective towards getting our Gov. to sit up and finally deal with the situation with all the attention and fuss. It is well know that the flow of drugs and illegals eventually go around the lines. So what of it? That is not the real reason we are there per say. It is of course to also prove the point that it can be done all the way from the gulf to the pacific.

Well, its working on all 8 so far. So are the methods of save our state. If you really did just get wind of what save our state has done, or has accomplished more recently, then I do not see how you can say some of the things you say.

[Sandinator]

I changed my mind and my post... OP was right as rain on this one.

[Sandinator]

:bag: I heard something go bump.